I think it's less about speed and more about pacing, yeah?
Like a GM needs to be able to read the table and understand when the players want to take it slower or when they're starting to drift and need a metaphorical gun on the table.
Similar to your con game that was painfully slow, I've had a game where the GM was basically huffing and puffing because the PCs were having a moment to reflect on an avoidable tragedy involving an NPC and the GM was worried we "weren't going to get as far as he wanted us to", which ended up being a pretty mediocre fight if I recall.
An agenda oriented GM that doesn’t honor roleplay can be a problem, but it’s seems like a rare issue compared to games that drag. The latter is so common, that definitely the GM’s onus should be on pushing the pace. I view it as my responsibility to get bored first.
Even if one player is having a meaningful moment, it still could mean a loss of pace, other players tuning out, etc. Some GMs take a lot of solace/pride when the players are playing amongst themselves, but I’m hesitant to think of that as a big win.
I agree in most cases - the more that happens and the more meaningful choices the players make, the more fun.
But almost nothing happened in one of my most memorable sessions. Previously, the party had killed a medusa and un-stoned the centuries-old imperial crown prince of a nearby empire. The party decided to take him back to the capital and support his bid for the throne. As they talked to him this session, though, they discovered he held some particularly loathsome old beliefs.
Most of the session was a long debate over whether they should cash in this meal ticket for the good life or kill him and prevent a lot of potential misery. It ended with a quick knife in his sleep. Not a single dice roll. I just sat back and listened to my players talk.
Now, a session like this wouldn't fly at a convention. But you can have a killer time despite nothing much happening for the characters. The poison is when nothing much happens for the players.
It sounds like that debate session happened after a session with more action. I find that every 4 or 5 sessions of a campaign a slow down is OK and the players can enjoy it for a single session. Taking stock, debating big decisions, roleplaying slices of life, visiting non-adventure locations, roleplaying with NPC companions or retainers, idly picking a sage's brain, managing a home base, etc. Even just roleplaying conversation in a hospital bed as one or more of them recover from their wounds. This falls under varying pacing and it works best if the same players are present for the fast paced intense sessions and the slower low intensity ones.
Nice! Very interesting read. I've been thinking more and more about how people seem to just accept things like 'having to wait a long time for your turn' as a given.
Just wanted to say I watched you winter's daughter actual play before starting my dolmenwood campaign, and it was very reassuring.
After watching so many high production actual plays, seeing an experience gm going through a module without much fanfare or grand performances had a calming effect on me. I thought to myself - this doesn't look hard, I can totally do this.
Glad that was helpful! That was exactly why I made it. The trick is to approach it almost like you're another player there to find out what happens. Keep the pressure up, remind them of obvious choices they could make, and see where it goes.
How would you balance this with players who like to role-play? They chatter and discuss things in character, and they all enjoy it. I like to allow them to interact, and they often interact with an NPC, so I'm having fun, too. It does take multiple games to finish an adventure though. How can I speed up without them feeling like I'm stepping on their fun still allowing the opportunity for the in-character social interactions and interrogations that they enjoy?
I think it's all good as long as they're having fun. If everyone is engaged in the role play, then everyone has something to do and isn't sitting around waiting. If you had a situation where one PC was really enjoying a long conversation with an NPC, and everyone else was sitting around waiting for a chance to do something THEN you would have a problem.
There a fantastic take on The Lost City thing called Ave Nox. A fantastic, dark but much more cohesive version of Lost City. No masked drugged out weirdos, but tons of weirdos.
That's funny, my first tabletop RPG experience at a convention went similarly horribly, all for different reasons though. Was at a small con in Biloxi, MS right around the time Adventurer's League came out.
Our GM was a teenager who read the module straight into his GM screen, muffling himself. He'd only poke his head up to obtusely yell at passing cosplayers what character he thought they were cosplaying.
Half the table left in the middle of the session, only to be replaced by a family with one teenage son. The mother of that family ended up chastising the kid at the end of the game saying he wasn't being a good GM...
...after he ended the session by standing up and pumped his hands in the air screaming "WE GOT A TPK OVER HERE". We'd been railroaded to an underground room and touched a statue, which put us in a combat we were destined to lose without any of us being able to beat the statues' AC 17 for the whole fight. We were all level 1 in a 5e game, and we all died.
One of the interesting things about going to cons is that you get exposed to all the strange RPG cultures out there. You get DMs who have wildly different ideas about what a good session looks like compared to what popular online wisdom says.
I think it's less about speed and more about pacing, yeah?
Like a GM needs to be able to read the table and understand when the players want to take it slower or when they're starting to drift and need a metaphorical gun on the table.
Similar to your con game that was painfully slow, I've had a game where the GM was basically huffing and puffing because the PCs were having a moment to reflect on an avoidable tragedy involving an NPC and the GM was worried we "weren't going to get as far as he wanted us to", which ended up being a pretty mediocre fight if I recall.
Fair point. I don't think I've ever played with a DM who was worried about that.
An agenda oriented GM that doesn’t honor roleplay can be a problem, but it’s seems like a rare issue compared to games that drag. The latter is so common, that definitely the GM’s onus should be on pushing the pace. I view it as my responsibility to get bored first.
Even if one player is having a meaningful moment, it still could mean a loss of pace, other players tuning out, etc. Some GMs take a lot of solace/pride when the players are playing amongst themselves, but I’m hesitant to think of that as a big win.
I agree in most cases - the more that happens and the more meaningful choices the players make, the more fun.
But almost nothing happened in one of my most memorable sessions. Previously, the party had killed a medusa and un-stoned the centuries-old imperial crown prince of a nearby empire. The party decided to take him back to the capital and support his bid for the throne. As they talked to him this session, though, they discovered he held some particularly loathsome old beliefs.
Most of the session was a long debate over whether they should cash in this meal ticket for the good life or kill him and prevent a lot of potential misery. It ended with a quick knife in his sleep. Not a single dice roll. I just sat back and listened to my players talk.
Now, a session like this wouldn't fly at a convention. But you can have a killer time despite nothing much happening for the characters. The poison is when nothing much happens for the players.
Yeah the real key is engagement and it sounds like your session had that.
It sounds like that debate session happened after a session with more action. I find that every 4 or 5 sessions of a campaign a slow down is OK and the players can enjoy it for a single session. Taking stock, debating big decisions, roleplaying slices of life, visiting non-adventure locations, roleplaying with NPC companions or retainers, idly picking a sage's brain, managing a home base, etc. Even just roleplaying conversation in a hospital bed as one or more of them recover from their wounds. This falls under varying pacing and it works best if the same players are present for the fast paced intense sessions and the slower low intensity ones.
Nice! Very interesting read. I've been thinking more and more about how people seem to just accept things like 'having to wait a long time for your turn' as a given.
The criteria I use all the time now is "would I put up with this in a board game."
Just wanted to say I watched you winter's daughter actual play before starting my dolmenwood campaign, and it was very reassuring.
After watching so many high production actual plays, seeing an experience gm going through a module without much fanfare or grand performances had a calming effect on me. I thought to myself - this doesn't look hard, I can totally do this.
Glad that was helpful! That was exactly why I made it. The trick is to approach it almost like you're another player there to find out what happens. Keep the pressure up, remind them of obvious choices they could make, and see where it goes.
How would you balance this with players who like to role-play? They chatter and discuss things in character, and they all enjoy it. I like to allow them to interact, and they often interact with an NPC, so I'm having fun, too. It does take multiple games to finish an adventure though. How can I speed up without them feeling like I'm stepping on their fun still allowing the opportunity for the in-character social interactions and interrogations that they enjoy?
I think it's all good as long as they're having fun. If everyone is engaged in the role play, then everyone has something to do and isn't sitting around waiting. If you had a situation where one PC was really enjoying a long conversation with an NPC, and everyone else was sitting around waiting for a chance to do something THEN you would have a problem.
Awesome, thank you for your reply. :)
I’d love to see a fast paced Professor DM Macdeath actual play.
That guy is an entertainer, it was awesome.
He’s got some actual plays on his Patreon. He’s very active as well.
Thanks I’ll have a look. I did see his YouTube Lost City which is my first and favourite D&D module
There a fantastic take on The Lost City thing called Ave Nox. A fantastic, dark but much more cohesive version of Lost City. No masked drugged out weirdos, but tons of weirdos.
That's funny, my first tabletop RPG experience at a convention went similarly horribly, all for different reasons though. Was at a small con in Biloxi, MS right around the time Adventurer's League came out.
Our GM was a teenager who read the module straight into his GM screen, muffling himself. He'd only poke his head up to obtusely yell at passing cosplayers what character he thought they were cosplaying.
Half the table left in the middle of the session, only to be replaced by a family with one teenage son. The mother of that family ended up chastising the kid at the end of the game saying he wasn't being a good GM...
...after he ended the session by standing up and pumped his hands in the air screaming "WE GOT A TPK OVER HERE". We'd been railroaded to an underground room and touched a statue, which put us in a combat we were destined to lose without any of us being able to beat the statues' AC 17 for the whole fight. We were all level 1 in a 5e game, and we all died.
One of the interesting things about going to cons is that you get exposed to all the strange RPG cultures out there. You get DMs who have wildly different ideas about what a good session looks like compared to what popular online wisdom says.
Really good advice
Thank you!
I love that video of your table! It's the only actual play that I feel shows actual play! You should make more of them!
Preferable running Knave 2e as I would love to see how you run it
I'd definitely like to do that at some point, but some players in my current group don't want to be recorded, which I respect.